Talk:Primerica

Primerica is not an MLM.

It's registered under the SEC as a general agency. Calling it an MLM is blatantly false. Brockmcc22 (talk) 04:24, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think that's historically accurate. There are plenty of sources that describe the company as MLM. That said, the way MLM is written in the article seems like that's how the company identifies itself but based on all these talk edits (from reps of the company??) that doesn't seem to be the case... So it might be better to say that the company "has been described as MLM." Any objections? ALSO, in general, this page seems quite bad / unfocused to me. It's promotional, there's tons of unnecessary content and really arbitrary stuff. There's a lot that I'd want to fix. Likeanechointheforest (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Likeanechointheforest (talk) Whay sources are you referring to? Because the only source listed in the article is a source from over 11 years ago. Primerica Financial services is a registered Financial services company. Attributes like mandatory inventory purchases or mandatory recruiting to suspend fees/costs that are attributed to MLMS are not an attribute of this company, and describing it as an MLM only serves to bend the truth, which is something that a websites of facts shouldn't be doing.Brockmcc22 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:52, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Brockmcc22 (talk), please check sources 4-7 Likeanechointheforest (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Agree! Primerica is NOT an MLM company. JeanneVD (talk) 20:53, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

A.L. Williams was MLM, and A.L. Williams became Primerica. Therefore Primerica was MLM historically at the very least, which must be mentioned. Coupdeforce (talk) 03:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

What even

Just writing to note how obvious the people who work for Primerica are on this talk page. You can't just state that a company isn't an MLM because someone who works for them say they aren't, when that accounts for the majority of their business model. I can tell you my turd is a chocolate brownie all I want; that doesn't make it not a turd. Primerica is very obviously an MLM - you have to buy your way into employment, and every employee is recruited by other employees to make revenue trickle up a pyramid. --208.113.0.174 (talk) 15:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2021

Primerica is not a multi level marketing company. Please correct this. 2600:1012:B0D1:D7FD:96E:3F86:84C7:52F4 (talk) 03:53, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. JavaHurricane 03:57, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Edits requested w/ declared COI

Hoping to get some assistance with some suggested edits, as I have a COI and do not want to update the page without review. Here are the requested edits:

Remove picture that says it is a "Primerica Building in Hillsboro, Oregon" and replace with the Primerica HQ building (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Primerica_HQ_Building.jpg)

Also, I would like to provide some suggested edits to the financials. We just filed a 10-K today that includes these details to replace the existing old information.It can viewed/referenced here:

Proposed changes to the right-side summary bar:

All numbers are in US dollars and for the year ended December 31, 2021

Revenues $2.71 billion Operating income $511.12 million (that is actually income before income taxes, not operating income) Net Income $373.36 million (that is actually net income attributable to Primerica, not net income) Total Assets $16.12 billion Total Equity $2.08 billion (that is actually Total Permanent stockholders’ equity, not total equity)

Also requesting the addition of Peter Schneider, President to the "Key People" section.

Thanks so very much. TermLifeOG (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)TermLifeOG

 Partly done: I got the image, but pdfs arent working on my computer right now, I'll look at the rest tomorrow if noone else comes by before then. Leaving the tag open until then. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 08:16, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for updating that image @IAmChaos. Please let me know if can do anything to support you regarding the other requested edits TermLifeOG (talk) 14:18, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@IAmChaos: Have you finished reviewing the changes above? Is this ready to be closed? Z1720 (talk) 01:55, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh thanks for reminding me, I'll look now! Happy Editing--IAmChaos 04:17, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

References

 Done @TermLifOG: sorry I forgot, thanks for the ping. Closing the tag now, feel free to reopen if you need anything else. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 04:31, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

@TermLifeOG: - (with an e) Happy Editing--IAmChaos 04:33, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks so very much! TermLifeOG (talk) 16:06, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Edits Requested w/ Declared COI

Looking for some assistance to make come updates.

Infobox Update

In the "Industry" section of the box, it lists "Multi-level marketing." This is not a type of industry.

Less urgent of an update, but still important. We would also like to add a new section to the Primerica page. We would like to add some information on the Foundation which we launched in 2010. Just would like to include some basic info on its mission and giving. Here are the requested changes and accompanying sources.

PROPOSED TITLE FOR NEW SECTION: FOUNDATION

The Primerica Foundation is a charitable organization sponsored by Primerica, Inc. It was established in 2010.[1]

Since its inception, the foundation has donated over $6 million to nonprofit and community organizations in Gwinnett County, Metro Atlanta, and the state of Georgia.[2]

The Primerica Foundation works with approximately 100 nonprofit and community organizations annually, who help families and individuals in need. The foundation has awarded 600 grants, which has impacted more than 4 million lives. [3]

The foundation’s efforts include a donation of $175,000 to COVID-19 relief,[4] donations to the American Red Cross,[5] and a sponsoring partnership with Gwinnett County’s first homeless relief shelter.[6] In July 2022, the Primerica Foundation awarded a $50,000 grant to the City of Refuge which will use the grant funds to help underserved and low-to-moderate income families and individuals achieve self-sufficiency – a central focus of both organizations. [7] TermLifeOG (talk) 19:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

javahurricane wondering since you have been active on our page whether might take a look at this request and offer your thoughts? TermLifeOG (talk) 14:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

@IAmChaos:could you assist with reviewing these recommended updates please?(talk)TermLifeOG (talk) 15:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Request edit on 14 November 2022 - What Primerica Sells

In the list of products Primerica offers, we should include Medicare Advantage plans through easyMedicare. EZMedMan (talk) 16:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  ℰmi1y_⧼T·C⧽ 02:01, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

pri-ex21_27.htm (sec.gov) EZMedMan (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I can make the addition if nobody else can! Would link to the home page (easymedicare.com) which includes mention that they are an affiliate of Primerica. EZMedMan (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Please don't. This does not seem terribly notable, and continuing to add promotional material for your affiliate is problematic. Sam Kuru (talk) 18:01, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Inquiry on the Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) Claim About Primerica

I am inquiring about issues with the multi-level marketing (MLM) claim made on Wikipedia about Primerica, particularly the reliability of the sources used.

Assessing the Wikipedia page’s information, one reference for the MLM claim is one piece in Business Insider, from 2010, by Vincent (Vince) Veneziani, who had worked at Everdeen Private Capital, per LinkedIn (among other companies, like Hedgeye Risk Management and Golden Archer Investments). Everdeen Private Capital appears to have a team at multiple levels and markets financial products—and its website is just a WordPress page (even with the WP icon still there in a Google search of it). For his article, Veneziani’s sources primarily include online forums. He seems to imply that having multiple levels, in whatever form, is “multi-level marketing.” But Everdeen Private Capital also has senior representatives, still in tiered positions relative to newer representatives. Realistically, the piece on Business Insider, and some like it on Forbes, are essentially opinion pieces, not bound to facts or evidence. They can be written with a slant, without an objective point of view. Given Veneziani’s competing business interests in the financial services industry, his piece does not seem reliable to source the MLM claim about Primerica.

See [10] Veneziani, Vince (April 1, 2010). “Meet Primerica, The New Wall Street IPO That’s Really A Multi-Level Marketing Scheme.” Business Insider. https://www.businessinsider.com/citigroup-primerica-ipo-2010-4

Veneziani published an "Ask Me Anything" Reddit post nine years ago discussing his past experiences in the financial services industry at the following link, as archived: https://web.archive.org/web/20230124042432/http://web.archive.org/screenshot/https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/265zjj/im_an_author_journalist_entrepreneur_and_trader.

Cited on Wikipedia, a 2012 source for the MLM claim about Primerica comes from Ryan Chittum, in the Columbia Journalism Review. The only spot in his piece mentioning Primerica says, “1988: Weill buys Primerica, a sketchy multilevel-marketing (pyramid style) firm that sells term life insurance.” Chittum’s source for this claim is a May 1, 1994 piece by Michael Quint, in The New York Times, titled “Mischief Under the Travelers Umbrella.” There is not any deeper elaboration by Chittum; he simply references a 1994 article in his 2012 “listicle.”

See [11] Chittum, Ryan (March 9, 2012). “200 Years of Citi: An alternate history.” Columbia Journalism Review. Retrieved November 7, 2018. https://archives.cjr.org/the_audit/an_alternate_history_of_citigr.php

Another more recent source is a 2016 essay, by Michelle Celarier, in Slate, on Herbalife and MLMs. The only sentence mentioning Primerica says, “Timothy Muris, who was head of the FTC during the Bush era, along with J. Howard Beales, the director of the FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection during the same period, lobbied for the exclusion as representatives for Primerica Financial, an MLM that sells insurance.” Celarier neither provides any source for referring to Primerica as an MLM nor elaborates on this claim.

See [12] Celarier, Michelle (May 9, 2016). “Herbalife’s Endgame.” Slate. Retrieved September 24, 2017. https://slate.com/business/2016/05/the-government-is-finally-closing-in-on-herbalife-herbalife-will-fight-back-hard.html

The other cited reference on Wikipedia happens to be a self-published book—“Community Press,” not any recognized publisher—titled Primerica MLM: Making Network Marketing Simple by Pam Hogan, published on December 2, 2010. Hogan alleges that she, in fact, had been involved with various MLMs—since high school. Her book can only be purchased and read in Kindle and has not shown paperback options via Amazon. Apparently, Hogan has written multiple books, all self-published in 2010, with similar titles. These include Arbonne MLM: Network Marketing You Can Wrap Your Brain Around (December 2, 2010), Nu Skin MLM: New Ways of Doing Network Marketing Right (December 2, 2010), Reliv MLM: Making Money Through Network Marketing (December 2, 2010), and about thirteen other similarly titled works. In each, she alleges long-term experience in various MLMs and provides “guides” to readers. A further search under Hogan’s author profile shows these works. The descriptions for the books appear to be quite similar, except the name of the company in question is changed. This source also does not seem reliable, given that anybody can self-publish and Hogan does not seem reputable.

See [45] Primerica MLM: Making Network Marketing Simple. www.amazon.com. Community Press. December 2, 2010. Retrieved March 4, 2021. https://www.amazon.com/Primerica-MLM-Making-Network-Marketing-ebook

In response to the MLM claim about Primerica, sources like Investor’s Business Daily and Business Wire indicate the contrary. According to Investor’s Business Daily, as of 2022, Primerica was ranked number one in Most Trusted Life Insurance Companies. It has been ranked above well-known companies, which also happen not to be MLMs. In addition, it ranked number three in Most Trusted Financial Companies, above State Farm at 21, Progressive at 23, and GEICO at 24. The latter companies did not even rank on life insurance; they only ranked on auto and home, as seen in the list.

See Morey Stettner (August 29, 2022). “Trusted Insurers Deliver On Their Promises.” Investor’s Business Daily. https://www.investors.com/news/top-insurance-companies-customer-trust-2022

See IBD Staff (August 29, 2022). “IBD’s 25 Most Trusted Financial Companies.” Investor’s Business Daily. https://www.investors.com/news/most-trusted-financial-companies-top-25-list-2022

Business Wire reports “Primerica Ranked on Fortune 1000® List for Third Consecutive Year,” as of 2022. It reads:

“The Fortune 1000® is the annual ranking by Fortune Magazine of the 1,000 largest U.S. public companies, listed in order of reported revenue. With revenues of approximately $2.7 billion in fiscal year 2021, Primerica ranks number 895 in the most recent list, up from number 980 in 2020 when the company debuted the list.”

The “About Primerica, Inc.” section on Business Wire reads as follows:

“Primerica, Inc., headquartered in Duluth, GA, is a leading provider of financial services to middle-income households in North America. Independent licensed representatives educate Primerica clients about how to better prepare for a more secure financial future by assessing their needs and providing appropriate solutions through term life insurance, which we underwrite, and mutual funds, annuities and other financial products, which we distribute primarily on behalf of third parties. We insured over 5.7 million lives and had over 2.7 million client investment accounts on December 31, 2021. Primerica, through its insurance company subsidiaries, was the #2 issuer of Term Life insurance coverage in the United States and Canada in 2021. Primerica stock is included in the S&P MidCap 400 and the Russell 1000 stock indices and is traded on The New York Stock Exchange under the symbol ‘PRI.’”

See (June 20, 2022). “Primerica Ranked on Fortune 1000® List for Third Consecutive Year.” Business Wire. https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220620005488/en

The above description from Business Wire would be far more objective than using the descriptor “multi-level marketing," as seen on Wikipedia. Writing “Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company,” and categorizing it as such using the sources assessed, presents multiple problems. It sells what seems to be speculation by disputable sources as objective and factual. Importantly, it ultimately serves to misrepresent not only the company but also its representatives, doing harm in the form of damage to reputation and finance. Thus, even if not deliberate, this misrepresentation can be described as defamation.

Reliable sources, from reputable publications on business and finance, and the accompanying rankings, as noted, are public information and can be easily verified. Neither the recent source at Investor’s Business Daily nor the one at Business Wire appears in the references for the Wikipedia page on Primerica. Instead, there appears to be a pointed focus on the company allegedly being an MLM.

An MLM would not be publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) or ranked alongside—and, importantly, above—State Farm, Progressive, and GEICO. Nor would an MLM be ranked on the Fortune 1000®, a list that features a number of legitimate companies like Walmart, Amazon, and Apple—not MLMs. MLMs do not require state and federal licensing or, regarding the financial services industry, comply with the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority (FINRA). MLMs do not require adherence to the state and federal regulations that extend to an entire industry and the companies within it. An MLM would not fulfill the above, especially requiring state and federal licensing. These facts undermine the MLM claim about Primerica since, all things being considered, other companies would qualify as MLMs on this basis. Related examples would include State Farm, Progressive, and GEICO. Donovan Cleckley (talk) 05:07, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 01:45, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested Around MLM Comments

@LemonakaI am following up on the MLM comments list in the last entry on this Talk page entitled: Inquiry on the Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) Claim About Primerica.

The sources used to substantiate that we are sometimes referred to as a MLM are opinion pieces and do not comply with WP:RS. Given this, I am asking that you consider removing "Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company" from the first paragraph altogether. In addition, would ask that you consider removing the mention of MLM from the info box where it is used to describe the industry of the company. Primerica is a financial services company and MLM is a marketing strategy (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing) and not an industry. Our company pays compensation to representatives based on an insurance agency model.

Appreciate anything you can do to help or if you would like to discuss further.

Thanks so much TermLifeOG (talk) 17:16, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Reply 20-SEP-2023

  Clarification requested  

1. There are three sources in the article which are used to back up this claim. Please describe what it is, about these sources, which does not confirm the given information.
2. When ready to proceed with the requested information, kindly change the {{Edit COI}} template's answer parameter to read from |ans=y to |ans=n. Please note that prior text entered in the Edit request proposal should not be retro-actively altered. Instead, a new reply post supplying the needed information should be posted below this review. The original {{Edit COI}} template may then be altered.

Regards,  Spintendo  19:48, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, trying to understand how to respond and change the template's answer parameter. Can you share a link that might explain that? Want be sure I am doing it correctly.

There are a number of improvements that could be made to the article as has been noted by other contributors, but in this specific case I am saying that the sources used are not journalists per se, they are pieces written based on the author's opinion. The one source that might be considered valid is over 13 years old. (https://www.businessinsider.com/citigroup-primerica-ipo-2010-4)

Even with this, the "Primerica has been described as a multi-level marketing company" is redundant in the the opening as it is already discussed in the Products and Business Model section. So given that, can we have it removed from the intro?

Fundamentally, we do not agree with this characterization that we are an MLM. Primerica's independent representatives earn commissions based on personal sales and the sales of the team they recruit and train: representatives do not earn income from the recruitment of other representatives. Representatives expand their businesses by adding representatives to their teams to increase the number of clients they are able serve. Primerica's independent representatives must maintain proper state and federal training and licensing requirements to recommend financial products.

Really appreciate your help!! TermLifeOG (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, @Spintendojust wanting to make sure you had seen this. Wasn't sure if I needed to tag you. Thanks again for your consideration. TermLifeOG (talk) 16:22, 25 September 2023 (UTC)